The Leadership Vacuum

Recently, I spent some time with a church in the South.  Their pastor of 21 years left in April and they used the Congregation Assessment Tool to come up with a pastoral profile as they go through a transition period.  This congregation has a long and illustrious history in the community but their attendance has been dropping for some time. Three years ago their average Sunday attendance was 326 people, at last count they had 261 in attendance.  The data tells me over and over again that something has been going on for awhile.

When interpreting a Vital Signs report, it is always important to note the relationship between the Conflict Management Index and the Governance Index.  Often, if the congregation has a higher index on Conflict Management, signaling that conflict to some degree is being managed, than Governance, we are looking at a congregation where trouble is brewing.  If the Governance index is higher than the Conflict Management index, then the congregation is coming out of conflict with a leadership that can leverage their trust from their congregation to help.

The None of the Above Scenarios

But sometimes there is more than these two scenarios – it goes deeper.

Here we have a congregation that has average Conflict Management scores but very low Governance scores.  When we see this kind of Governance score the data tells us a story and that story comes from a possible three scenarios: there is a leadership vacuum created by a strong leader; a personnel decision had to be made and the leadership could not share the details with the congregation; or there is a decision that was made on some large issue that has caused distrust.

For this congregation, the previous Pastor was a strong leader, who made most of the decisions and when he didn’t make the decisions he was involved in the decision making process.  On the one hand, this can be good. Decisions can be made fast – the group of me, myself, and I can come to a consensus fairly quickly.  But what happens to the rest of the leadership?

This kind of literal single-minded decision making can be crippling for leadership.  There is no room to develop and grow as leaders. It is a marriage without balance or accountability. It leaves the congregation feeling like the leaders are not showing genuine concern in what others are thinking when decisions are made.  But, in fact, the leaders are not making decisions. This role of sitting, listening  and waiting often leaves those in leadership feeling powerless and ineffective. Meanwhile, the congregation can’t understand why there is so much shoulder shrugging and it is frustrating.

What can we say to these leaders? 

Leadership can be a thankless job. It is time consuming, overwhelming and involves a delicate balance of listening and acting.  For a leadership 557ef22a7dd3b107f4bb3cb4304fc9dethat is being told that their trust from the congregation is so low, they need to hear truth but they also need to hear hope.

As interpreters in this situation, we need to say the following:

  1. You have been faithful.
  2. This feeling of powerlessness and this lack of trust from the congregation will not last forever.
  3. Understand, you are in a vulnerable position and any issue that comes along that has any element of conflict could be risky.
  4. You will need to begin making clear, consistent, transparent decisions.
  5. You will need to communicate those clear, consistent, transparent decisions in a way that reaches the congregation.
  6. It is time to begin healing.
  7. It is time to lead.

When I went through this with the leadership of this particular congregation, they were able to move past feeling deflated and wondering why they were viewed this way.  They began asking questions about how to start leading with this report.   The discussion became focused on transparency and what steps were needed to get there. They started leading.

I always say to those I work with “I know your data but I don’t know your story.”  It is our job to help the data become a part of the congregation’s story.  By working through this conversation with the leadership, we can help them own their story and start writing it themselves.


Emily Swanson
President of Holy Cow! Consulting




Interim and Transitional Ministry Training Opportunities

We are excited to announce that January 20-23, 2016 the Samaritan Counseling Center of the Capital Region will be offering a training for Transitional Ministries in Latham, N.Y.  Please see the description below.  To register or for more information and future trainings click here


The face of interim ministry has changed drastically over the past 25 years. From short term, fill the pulpit situations to long term positions requiring system assessment skills and emotional intelligence, interim ministry has become TRANSITIONAL MINISTRY. Congregations need help transitioning between pastors and also in navigating the swiftly changing landscape of ministry in the 21st Century.

S.T.E.P. provides the only evidence based approach to the many transitions churches are encountering.

Why guess what is going on within a system? Is it safe to make an assessment from opinions within the system? Your own experience from working with churches is that no one person holds all the answers. Make evidence based,strategic interventions so the system can transition to new leadership, a new size, or a new situation.

How much energy is in the church you are working with?

How flexible is the church?

What are the core component of this church’s identity?

What, where, and who are the stressors?

How do you plan the transitional phase for the church? What elements are included if you are a short term, mid-term, or long term transitional minister?

Where is the best place to intervene in an already existing group?

What issues will bring the church together? Which ones will create a rift?

Program Description

Phase 1 – Core Competencies

The First Part of the training addresses the skill of accurately assessing a system. Without a good assessment of the system, no effective interventions can be designed. Learn how to determine who knows who, who influences who, and who’s who to how the system typically reacts to stress, where the covert power is, how the communication is controlled and everything in between. Phase 1 is a 4 day 3 night schedule that includes training each evening.

Phase 2 – Modules

The second part of the training is an array of modules addressing different topics. You can choose ala carte style the module(s) that will best suit your needs. Each of the modules offered by the Samaritan Counseling Center will be 4 hours. Two of the courses* are required if you wish to receive the Samaritan Counseling Center’s Endorsement of Transition Training Completion. Each of the modules offered by Samaritan Counseling Center costs $100. There are other modules offered by the CRTC (Capital Region Theological Center) which will vary in price and structure.

Modules will include but not be limited to:

  • *Boundary Awareness, David Olsen, PhD
  • *Emotional Intelligence, Keli Rugenstein, PhD
  • The Differentiated Leader, James Fenimore, PhD
  • Church Size Transitioning, Keli Rugenstein, PhD
  • Managing the Dangers of Leading, Keli Rugenstein, PhD
  • Use of Technology in Ministry
  • Translational Leadership Training
  • Lombard Mennonite Conflict Resolution, CRTC
  • Denomination Specific Polity and Theology
  • Ecumenical Polity and Theology, multiple presenters

Phase 3 – Coaching

The third part of the S.T.E.P. Training is one year of coaching while you are serving in transitional ministry. There is a coaching session each month. Your first coaching session will be individual. The remaining eleven sessions will be with a small group of no more than four. Coaching sessions will address issues that each person in the group is facing so each participant will benefit from the experiences of the others. This program ensures a minimum of 60 contact hours. The cost when beginning the training is $1300 and that includes both Phase 1 and Phase 3.

Organizational Intelligence and Four Kinds of Churches: Which One Are You?

This post is written by Nancy  Moore of NL Moore and Associate and was originally posted on her blog.  NL Moore & Associates is a strategic associate of HC!C.  They consult nationwide specializing in the areas of leadership search and selection, succession planning, pastoral coaching, team/board development and organizational culture/health assessment. For more on NL Moore and Associates please check out their website:

About eight years ago I was introduced to a gentleman named Russ Crabtree. Russ was a successful church consultant who had, a few years earlier, co-authored a book titled The Elephant in the Boardroomspeaking the unspoken about pastoral succession, which is often recognized as one of the best books ever written on the topic. That was the initial means to our introduction, but we quickly developed a personal rapport and friendship that led to a number of professional collaborations.

Russ is one of those truly special individuals – a rare gem in a sea of unique people. He is direct yet empathetic; both analytical and innovative; a brilliant thinker and an excellent communicator; a creative problem solver with the soul of an artist. He served as a pastor for more than 20 years before shifting to work as a consultant to churches and other non-profit organizations. He trained me in his methodology for succession planning, we worked on some projects together and he graciously coached me as I developed my consulting practice. The more we had an opportunity to work together, the more I felt like I won the “mentor lotto.”

Russ developed and introduced me to the “organizational intelligence” approach to consulting. Organizational intelligence (OI) offers a three-dimensional view of the church or organization. It is like taking the church to a doctor, a tailor and a travel agent. Leaders come away understanding the overall health and culture of the church, the specific areas where adjustments or changes are needed, and where the people want to go together in the future. I was hooked. I caught a vision for how these insights not only inform the succession process, but also form the foundation for every critical decision leaders make in the life of a church: pastoral transition, strategic planning, team development, growth and change management. We use it as a basis for the Candidate Profile in every senior leadership transition we serve.

For example, if the OI indicates the church is in chaos (where congregants indicate there is a lot of energy and activity, but very little of it is satisfying), the initial candidate profile might describe a leader who will work quickly to assess the state of the ministry – what is working and what isn’t working. It might depict a directional leader who will set clear strategy and develop organizational focus. This person will align ministries and ministry leaders, improve communication and links between the ministries and the people, and get the staff team pulling in the same direction. In essence, the chaos church requires a leader who will create order out of the chaos.

When the OI shows a church to be in recovery or in need of a turnaround (where congregants lack both energy and satisfaction with the current state of the church) the profile might describe a challenge-motivated change-agent who is not afraid of a little hard work. The right candidate for this kind of church is someone who can diagnose problems and then inspire and motivate people toward the right solutions. Since congregants in recovery generally understand that things are not working well, this leader can bring a faster pace and solutions can be implemented more quickly than in some other situations.

Churches that are stuck are, in OI terms, said to be in status quo (where energy levels of congregants are low but satisfaction is high, so there is no motivation to do anything differently). Stuck churches represent the greatest challenge to pastors. Churches that fit this description are at the greatest risk of organizational death. The candidate profile for a church in status quo might include a patient, gentle, shepherding, slow-paced change agent who can build trusting relationships with the people and gradually motivate and encourage them to increase their vision for the Kingdom so that they become more active and energized.

If the OI indicates the church is already in a transformational posture (a healthy outlook where congregants are simultaneously energized by their participation in the church and satisfied by it) the initial profile might describe a leader who is not a wholesale change agent, but an improvement agent. A transformational church does not need to change as much as it needs a well-paced, collaborative leader who can work with the existing team to build on the healthy foundation that was laid by another; someone who will build relationships and trust before moving forward to innovate, advance and replicate the good things that are already happening there.

These broad brushstrokes illustrate how four churches of a similar theology, size, demographic and worship style could have very different needs with regard to their leadership, strategy and/or development. One size does not fit all. Utilizing organizational intelligence tools provide the lens through which decision-makers gain the clarity needed to craft the right path forward and then to execute that plan with confidence.


Your congregation’s mission and the CAT

The Congregation Assessment Tool (CAT) is an instrument that assesses the perspectives, experiences, and aspirations of members. We consistently emphasize that when the CAT is used in a planning process, it needs to be supplemented by intelligence from the environment. In our consulting work, we collect this intelligence through community demographic data as well as interviews, focus groups, and town meetings with community members and leaders.

In what sense is the CAT a “missional” assessment?

First, a positive climate in a church is prerequisite to missional initiatives. Few things are more disturbing in a church’s organizational intelligence (OI)
than to see that only a third of the members are satisfied, but their highest priority is reaching others. Creating more dissatisfied members is counter-missional.

Second, the CAT gives us a reliable read on the missional flexibility of a church, that is, its ability to fulfill its mission without having to invest inordinate amounts of energy to manage conflict.

Third, the CAT gives us insight into where members are focusing their attention, on persons, power, or ministry.

Fourth, the Missional Church Module of the CAT assesses whether members are more attractional or more missional in orientation. For example, we know that in a typical mainline church only 17% of members are comfortable telling faith stories.images-2

Finally, the Flow Module of the CAT gets a direct read on how members view their discipleship in the world. In the typical church, two thirds of
members indicate that their engagement to impact the world as an expression of Christian discipleship is lower or much lower than they would like. This reveals an important opportunity for churches with a missional orientation.

In these senses the CAT is not simply an internally focused instrument. From a missional perspective, it measures the spiritual/emotional capacity of a congregation to be missionally engaged, the readiness of a church to enfold people into a healthy system, the level of flexibility required to engage missional initiatives, the degree of orientation of members to a missional rather than attractional approach, and the dissatisfaction of members with their current level of discipleship in the world.

Russ Crabtree

Founder of Holy Cow! Consulting

Holy Cow! Consulting is excited to announce the upcoming publication of “Transition Apparitions: Why Much of What We Know about Pastoral Transitions is Wrong”

This latest book from Holy Cow! Consulting studies the data from over 900 churches and makes some startling discoveries regarding what happens to churches during a pastoral transition.  In a relatively brief number of pages, Russ Crabtree provides answers to questions like

  • What happens to the morale of a typical church as it moves through a pastoral transition?
  • Why do conflict levels in a typical church tend to intensify during a pastoral transition rather than improve?
  • Why does the trajectory of a church through a pastoral transition not track what we might expect with a grief reaction?
  • What are the typical losses in attendance and giving during a pastoral transition and what are the impacts of those upon the congregation?
  • Do interim pastors typically help congregations become more flexible as they prepare to welcome a new pastor or not?

The book ends by proposing an entirely new way of thinking about pastoral transitions and suggests a transformation in the way we train interim pastors.

Available Fall of 2015


Organizational Intelligence and Bearing Much Fruit

Jesus said that every tree is known by its own fruit.

William James captures the profundity of this simple statement: “fruit-tree1The roots of a man’s virtue are inaccessible to us. Our practice is the only sure evidence.”

At the corporate level, organizational intelligence is indifferent to the internal processes, structures, and beliefs of a particular congregation or faith-based ministry. While we recognize that denominational distinctives, styles of worship, and congregational qualities are important to members, they are in many ways inaccessible to us as outsiders beyond the scribbles on our flip charts.

The focus of organizational intelligence is on the fruit of the ministry, not as we would judge it, but as members bear witness to it. What we are asking members to identify is the quality of shared life, in the most literal terms, the “love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.” (Galatians 5:22-23)

We don’t use these exact words in OI because they are value-laden and subject to what is known as “idealistic distortion.” Idealistic distortion is the tendency to see one’s behavior in an overly positive manner. For example, when surveyed about whether they are good drivers, the great majority of respondents indicate they are “better than average.” Outside of Lake Wobegon, this is mathematically impossible!

When we speak of “satisfaction” we have good reason to believe that we are actually measuring aspects of love and peace. When we speak of “energy” we believe we are measuring aspects of joy and goodness. The hospitality that members offer to others (kindness), the capacity to manage conflicting differences (forbearance), and the willingness to follow leaders in a governance structure (faithfulness and self-control) are all expressions of this spiritual fruit.

Jesus indicated this to be the ultimate test of discipleship: “that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.” Notice that it is addressed corporately to disciples, that is, how we live in community. In this sense, engaging organizational intelligence is an act of corporate discipleship, looking beyond all the necessary processes at the roots to discover what is actually being produced as fruit.

Russ Crabtree

Founder of Holy Cow! Consulting 

The Fear of Looking and Organizational Intelligence

imagesEvery winter, with just the right amount of cabin fever,  I seem to muster up the courage to try to watch some kind of scary movie.  Predictably each time, I am crunched down in my seat in the middle of some horrifying scene, hands over my face, listening, but not really listening, to what is happening. When the scene is over, I will then, without fail, turn to my husband and say “what happened?”

Perhaps one of the most common things in working with churches that we hear is trepidation about what the Organizational Intelligence will find.   This fear can lead the church and its leadership to miss key pieces of its ministry and what is happening.   One of the best pieces of advice I ever received in litigation is to find my case’s weakest part – then take that weakest part head on and address it.  Do it before the opposing counsel gets to it or the judge notices it.    As an attorney this helps you control the narrative, and, hopefully, set the course for how your client’s story will play out.

It is simple advice really, but it is not instinctive.  It takes the old adage “find their weakness and exploit it” and turns it on its head.  It instead forces you to know your weakness, face it, and grow from there.   Perhaps most surprisingly, in my experience, acknowledging the weakness and calling it what it is can help focus move onto what is strong and where the greatest potential lies.

As someone new to this work, to me, this is what Organization Intelligence does. It takes out all of the guesswork. It removes the hands from the eyes and makes you watch the entire movie.  With this new whole vision, Organizational Intelligence places the control for the course of action back in the hands of the congregation and its leadership.  It helps churches discover what their weaknesses are and gives them an opportunity to turn those weakness with their strengths into instruments for change.   And what can come out of this intelligence and this new direction is something we, at Holy Cow! Consulting, get to see everyday.

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6.

Emily Swanson

President, Holy Cow! Consulting

Organizational Intelligence and Saving the Precious Commodity of Time

2079960b97301271e7872ccda5be2072A transformational regional association is one that has focused on creating vital, growing congregations and is discovering effective ways of achieving that vision.  One of the obstacles to this vision that is frequently mentioned is finding the time required for regional association staff and volunteers from local churches to undertake the work involved in that enterprise. In this article, I explore the four ways that OI addresses the time issue.

Time Saver #1: Abandoning Failure Paths

Anyone who has ever undertaken a road trip has first hand experience with the relationship between information and time. Maps, a graphic form of information, save time by eliminating failure paths, that is, routes that do not lead to the destination.

If the destination is vital, growing churches, organizational intelligence can help identify the paths that will not get us there. I will not present a comprehensive list of well-documented failure paths here. Instead, I will focus on one: low missional flexibility. I define missional flexibility as “the capacity of a church as a whole to make changes that are necessary to effectively fulfill its mission in a particular context without investing large amounts of internal energy managing conflict.” With rare exceptions, churches with low missional flexibility indicate the desire to grow, but do not have adequate flexibility to accommodate their aspirations.

Churches with low missional flexibility will stagnate and decline regardless of the financial resources that are invested in their renewal. This is also true of less tangible resources including the time and energy of a regional association staff. No amount of coaching, training, or facilitation can compensate for a lack of missional flexibility. For this reason, regional associations should direct their energy toward congregations that are more adaptive and move inflexible congregations to the bottom of their list. Organizational intelligence provides the information that enables leaders to make these kinds of tough decisions.  The result is a more productive use of time.

Time Saver #2: Closing Black Hole Conversations

Black hole conversations occur when individuals seek to monopolize the time of a leader by advocating a perspective that is not fact-based. When I was a pastor, I could count on an annual visit of the president of the women’s association complaining that younger women were not supporting their work by attending their (daytime) meetings. Finally, I did a little research. In a church with 800 members, only four “younger” women did not work daytime jobs. That ended the long series of (black hole) conversations.

In a healthy congregation, about 70% of members are going to be satisfied. Even so, 3% of the members are still going to be dissatisfied. For churches in crisis, 20% of the members may be dissatisfied. Even in the strongest of churches, 10% of members indicate there is a disturbing level of conflict. This means that complaints to regional association leaders are inevitable. A phone call from a disgruntled member of a vital congregation may be just as intense and time-consuming as a phone call from a disgruntled member of a church in crisis, but the two require very different responses. One is a black hole conversation that needs to be closed and the other is a crisis that requires an intervention. How does a regional association leader know which is which?

Organizational intelligence provides the information that enables leaders to do a better job distinguishing one from the other. By pulling up the Vital Signs report on the screen in real time while talking with a church member, the leader can place the conversation into a factual context. In some cases, this enables the leader to shift the conversation in a pastoral direction, which will likely be more fruitful. In other cases, it will enable the leader to know what conversations can be abbreviated or spaced, all with a good measure of integrity. That not only saves time, it reduces stress.

Time Saver #3: Focusing on Motivated Moments

Local church leaders are often oblivious to the activities of regional associations, and church members even less so. Regional association leaders often spend a lot of time trying to market programs to local churches and are frequently frustrated by the lack of response. Marketing regional association offerings that are unaligned with the priorities of local church leaders absorbs an inordinate amount of time.

For example, stewardship programs are often a major focus of regional associations in spite of the fact that organizational intelligence consistently indicates that stewardship is a relatively low priority to local church leaders, far behind priorities related to church growth, disciple-making, and creating vital congregations. Getting focused in areas where congregations are motivated saves time otherwise wasted on a small number of people. Organizational intelligence can save time by identifying those priorities.

The greater time-saver of organizational intelligence is in creating motivated moments when churches are asking for a connection to the regional association that require no marketing at all. When local church leaders review their organizational intelligence, they inevitably turn to the regional association representative (assuming he/she is in the room) and ask for help. If regional association leaders were simply present to local church leaders as they review their organizational intelligence, they could probably eliminate half their marketing budget and save all the time they invest in trying to get people to come to events.

Time Saver #4: Moving from Interventions to Interactions

Churches in crisis require climate-based interventions. I define a climate-based intervention as process in which a regional association must step into a local church to deal with a crisis situation where the morale has deteriorated to the point that the church is now in a recovery mode. (I distinguish this from a conduct-based intervention where allegations have been made against a leader.) As any regional association leader can testify, interventions are stressful and time-consuming.

In contract to churches in crisis are churches in descent. Churches in descent require an interaction. I define an interaction as a purposeful conversation among local church and regional association leaders. Interactions address issues before they reach the crisis level. For example, a healthy church that calls a pastor will rarely go into crisis in the first year of the new pastorate. However, there can be a significant erosion in energy and satisfaction, a trend, if sustained, is likely to lead to a crisis within five years. Interactions with churches in descent are much less stressful, are more likely to have positive outcomes, but also require far less time.

Churches in crisis are relatively easy to spot but hard to treat. Churches in descent is easier to treat, but harder to spot. For that reason, regional associations usually do not become engaged until churches reach the crisis level and require a time consuming intervention.

Organizational intelligence, when gathered systematically over time, can reverse this pattern. Regional association leaders can begin to spot churches in descent when purposeful conversations (interactions) are more like to have a positive outcome which preserves the vitality of the church, the esteem of the leader, and, most importantly for this article, saves time for the regional association leader.

Russ Crabtree

Organizational Intelligence and Community Impact

 Most contemporary observers agree that a shift from membership to discipleship is now taking place. Younger generations in particular want to know how to impact the world, not simply maintain an

Holy Cow! Consulting has been examining the organizational intelligence generated by churches that have added the Flow Module to their standard Church Assessment Tool. The Flow Module was developed in collaboration with the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta to measure the degree to which the impact of discipleship was “flowing” out into the world. Here are some of the findings from a “typical” church.

In response to the statement On the whole, I would say that my current level of engagement to impact the world as an expression of my Christian discipleship is…  About 40% of respondents indicate it is “lower than I would like it to be,” and about 10% indicate it is “much lower than I would like it to be.” Roughly half indicate it is “about right.”

In addition, one in two respondents indicates that they do not volunteer any time each month serving the community or world. The fact that about 50% of respondents indicate they make no contribution to the community or world at all combined with their admitted dissatisfaction with their level of impact suggests significant untapped potential.

In spite of the theological affirmation that work in the world is vocation, that is a calling to serve God, almost half of respondents indicate that their work is “just” or “mostly” a way of making a living.

What are the factors that have the biggest impact on whether a person decides to engage an opportunity of service? In the typical church, the top two are:

  1. The degree to which opportunities are a good fit for the person’s gifts and interests.
  2. The effectiveness of the opportunity in making a real difference in the person’s life and in the lives of others.

However, these vary somewhat from one church to another. For example, in one church, How well opportunities fit into my schedule and lifestyle is a top priority. The only way to know how a particular church is doing in equipping disciples versus developing members is through Organizational Intelligence (OI).

However, churches cannot simply decide to shift all their energy to external ministry. The OI is very clear: equipping members to serve in the world is no substitute for quality internal ministries such as worship, pastoral leadership, participatory decision-making, hospitality, and spiritual formation. As in baseball, you cannot skip the bases no matter how well you are hitting the ball out of the park.

Organizational Intelligence and Energy

We don’t get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. – Jon Gordon

UnknownIn his book, The Energy Bus, author Jon Gordon makes the case that organizational energy is fundamental to the success of any enterprise. We agree. Energy represents one of two bottom line measurements of church vitality (the other being satisfaction).

There are three characteristics of energy: intensity, pace, and endurance. High energy churches are enthusiastically engaged in their mission, they move their mission forward from ideas to action without miring down, and they sustain efforts over the long term in a manner that is self-replicating.   One of the mistakes that churches make with regard to energy is the failure to distinguish between baseline energy functions and premium energy functions.

Baseline energy functions are those that people expect a church to exhibit as a minimum requirement. Research indicates that these include competent leadership, positive relationships, a safe and comfortable environment, and the fair treatment of individuals and groups. Baseline energy functions can only take a church so far. Once people feel good about the relationships within the church, passing the peace an extra time in worship won’t generate higher energy.

Premium energy functions are those that build on baseline energy functions and take energy to levels that people experience as exceptional. Premium energy functions include:

· Helping members and groups make significant achievements related to the mission
· Matching the gifts and motivations of members to ministry assignments
· Celebrating member and group contributions to the mission
· Offering members and groups opportunities for personal growth and development

When churches have low comparative scores in the area of hospitality, leaders often object that only a small percentages of folks are on the negative side of the questions. What they fail to realize is people today expect a church to have excellent relationships among themselves and guests. When a significant number of respondents are on the fence, a church will generally have difficulty generating baseline energy, and it becomes nearly impossible to generate the high level of energy that makes a church “hum” with spiritual electricity.

Russ Crabtree

Founder of Holy Cow! Consulting